Sara I found it so strange too! It was genuinely unexpected.
Littlefury, I don't consider it a feminist either. All of the persons who made the comments were people who self-identify as progressive and feminist. (I'm not getting into the debate whether or not a man can be a feminist). A little less than half of the people who said the insulting things were men. The slight majority were men who self-identify as feminists and who are identified as feminists by female feminists that have shown them support. The women have been silent and/or supportive of the real over the top comments such as "slut" "whore" or "cunt" but have largely avoided saying those words themselves. While each of the women said disparaging thngs about women who disagree with them only one was coarse enough to use a word like "cunt"
I never used to get comments like these, the first one was about a month ago and now a bit more often. It really doesn't bug me but it does piss me off. I don't attack anyone on a personal level so I usually don't expect to be attacked back.
It bugs me in the sense that it makes me engage in self-doubt. I was first exposed to feminism at University and then more meaningfully on a progressive board about a year ago where many really had studied and reflected on feminism. it wasn't a passing interest. I walked away from the board not being a feminist but having several positive examples of feminism and asking myself if I was being fair on this issue.
These kind of comments make me shake my head at my foolishness. Obviously this is what many feminists think and don't articulate out loud due to politcal optics. It's probably something usually said when people are out of earshot.
I am dumbfounded that feminists would talk of other women as "cunts", "sluts", and "harlots" but I'm glad I learned that was part of the movement.
It doesn't make me mad or pissed off - it makes me keenly aware of how vigilant I will have to be with my own children to ensure that my future daughters in particular have to have a good understanding of feminists.
The daycare lobbyists are really bad at pushing us around, many of our people have met with them and done conferences and literally they are boo'd and given dirty looks. The only support they get is when woman walk by and whisper it.
I think it's unwise to draw conclusions from what few idiots do. I'm a pro-choice man who has supported many causes and organizations that are "feminist"; those vulgar epithets and the violence they imply don't reflect my views or feelings, or, frankly, those of anyone I know.
" All of the persons who made the comments were people who self-identify as progressive and feminist."
Actually, the vulgar comments you cite were made by anonymous posters on someone's blog. They didn't self-identify as anything.
"I'm not getting into the debate whether or not a man can be a feminist)."
Because there is no debate. The answer is yes.
" little less than half of the people who said the insulting things were men. The slight majority were men who self-identify as feminists and who are identified as feminists by female feminists that have shown them support. The women have been silent and/or supportive of the real over the top comments such as "slut" "whore" or "cunt" but have largely avoided saying those words themselves. While each of the women said disparaging thngs about women who disagree with them only one was coarse enough to use a word like "cunt""
Given that you didn't link to any of the comments in your main post on the subject, I'll have to take your word for it.
In any case, you've missed the point of my previous post, which was that if someone uses anti-feminist terminology, they aren't a feminist. Or at least they are not a very good one. Therefore, for you to use the comments of people on message boards as evidence of the secret black heart of every feminist ever is a deeply flawed exercise. (It's also sad that, for all the insight you claim to have gained about feminism, you still regard it as a "movement"; that is, a monolithic entity.)
But here's a thought for you. There's nothing more frustrating to a feminist than an anti-feminist woman. That the anger at seeing women support (in a feminist's opinion, and my own) views and policies that have traditionally been used to repress and demean women would manifest itself in invective that is itself demeaning towards women demonstrates the pervasiveness of the patriarchy and thus the enduring need for a political philosophy top counter its more noxious byproducts. In other words: feminsism. (of course, as I implied above, feminism is actually a range of philosophies...but you get the point, I hope.)
Littlefury you are actually incorrect those comments came from blogs and forums not all of the individuals are anonymous. I will not post a link to their words but I have kept all the links. If you comment and give me your email address I'll send you the links I won't post them here and attract traffic. I would not disclose your email address so your choice. Many of those people are known feminists btw.
And, little fury, I think men can be feminists but when I've said that some women have disagreed. I just don't want to focus on that.
You are also correct that while I recognize feminism is not a monolithic entity I didn't do a very good job of conveying that. There is one particular feminist that I believe has discussed this matter with sensitivity and not abused anyone with such horrible gender-specific terms.
I also don't believe that all feminists have a black heart.
And feminists do not have a right to be angered that other women have different voices and perspective. Women are half the population and there will be rich diversity in views. It's an act of abuse to assume that women have one mind, one view, one thought that we all share in common and anyone who steps out of line should be abused.
Are you referring to me specifically? I don't think I said anything disparaging to the people who referred to myself and other women as "cunts" "harlots" or "sluts'.
If you are asking me if I believe that would be an appropriate retort even if I did then I'd have to disagree.
But, please don't think I am complaining because despite my initial flinch I must say that I have felt very pleased to finally receive clarity about how pro-choice feminist men think about women who speak out and to have the opportunity to share their thoughts with people who were as naive as I was.
By gaining insight into how women, children, and families are seen it allows us to remain vigilant to protect ourselves and our families.
"You are also correct that while I recognize feminism is not a monolithic entity I didn't do a very good job of conveying that. There is one particular feminist that I believe has discussed this matter with sensitivity and not abused anyone with such horrible gender-specific terms."
You say you acknowledge feminism is not a monolith, and yet continue to try and portray such comments as "the voice of feminism". So either you're lying about the former or you're wrong about the latter. Which is it?
Little fury, I honestly feel very conflicted. I am struggling with how much of a voice these individuals represent. Is it 30% or 70%??? I am not sure. I do know that it's enough of a voice that it can't be ignored.
The reality is that a significant number of people that spoke up supporting funding that I read and saw DID make these kind of comments and many more stood silently in the same threads and never said anything. It was a significant number of the comments and a message that cannot and should not be ignored.
Infact, little fury -and I certainly could have missed comments out there in the vast blogosphere you are the ONLY person that I saw comment that words like harlot, cunt, whore, etc were unacceptable terms to use towards women. YOU WERE IT.One person. Rather sad.
Other people endorsed it through their silence or spoken word.
At the same time I won't ignore that some people who were supporters of status of women funding did keep their blogs absent of any of that kind of rhetoric and that didn't go unnoticed.
But, really, littlefury I was sincerely shocked that supposedly progressive feminist voices thought that it was acceptable to say "harlot" "slut" etc towards women. It makes me understand why feminist women feel so vulnerable about relying on men, so committed to women's shelters, and so emphatic that the patriarch is alive and well. If these are the men that they are surrounded by their world is a very sad one indeed.
"Little fury, I honestly feel very conflicted. I am struggling with how much of a voice these individuals represent. Is it 30% or 70%??? I am not sure. I do know that it's enough of a voice that it can't be ignored."
And why not? We're talking about individuals on the internet here.
"The reality is that a significant number of people that spoke up supporting funding that I read and saw DID make these kind of comments and many more stood silently in the same threads and never said anything. It was a significant number of the comments and a message that cannot and should not be ignored."
Again, why not? First, I have to say anyone who stands by idly while someone uses terms demeaning to women is no more a feminist than the person using said term, no matter what they call themselves. I mean, there's plenty of ammo for attacking REAL Women's actual positions without resorting to anti-feminist rhetoric (incidentally, I think you miss the point of some of the comments directed at RW). At the end of the day, we're still talking about a relative handful of people on an obscure corner of the internet ("the vast blogosphere" is a bit disingenous: no offence, but sites like yours and Canadain Cynic's are the Redwaters and Etobicoke's of the blogosphere).
Perhaps, LF, it's hard for me to gauge how much of a voice this is because I just don't know people who hold pro-feminist positions in real life in any meaningful number. I was quite startled to read some things written. I can't assess how much of a voice that it represents - I did feel it represented the majority of comments that I, personally, read and found it all very unsettling. I realize you disagree and you probably have a broader perspective as you are more familiar with the movement.
And,yes, you don't need to toss around words like "whores" "cunts" "harlots" "sluts" etc in order to be against REAL women. I, myself, would not support them because I don't feel that they have the normal measures of accountability that I am used to seeing. Where are their quarterly reports? Where is the list of the current Board of Directors? Where is some information about their membership numbers? I would just like to see that kind of detail as part of determining some sense of who they are speaking on behalf of and what they are doing. I also will never hold the same views on same sex marriage as they do and couldn't be a part of their messages on gay rights.
And, just to tell you, it wasn't just on canadian cynic's blog.
17 Comments:
That is funny on my childcare issue I get that response more from woman than men. A lot of feminists see me as the enemy.
"One wouldn't expect a feminist reaction to include sexist terminology but they did..."
Nope. An argument employing sexist terminology is de facto not a feminist argument.
Tell me: of all the comments directed your way, how many were from self-described feminists or women?
"One wouldn't expect a feminist reaction to include sexist terminology but they did..."
Nope. An argument employing sexist terminology is de facto not a feminist argument.
Tell me: of all the comments directed your way, how many were from self-described feminists or women?
Sara I found it so strange too! It was genuinely unexpected.
Littlefury, I don't consider it a feminist either. All of the persons who made the comments were people who self-identify as progressive and feminist. (I'm not getting into the debate whether or not a man can be a feminist). A little less than half of the people who said the insulting things were men. The slight majority were men who self-identify as feminists and who are identified as feminists by female feminists that have shown them support. The women have been silent and/or supportive of the real over the top comments such as "slut" "whore" or "cunt" but have largely avoided saying those words themselves. While each of the women said disparaging thngs about women who disagree with them only one was coarse enough to use a word like "cunt"
I never used to get comments like these, the first one was about a month ago and now a bit more often. It really doesn't bug me but it does piss me off. I don't attack anyone on a personal level so I usually don't expect to be attacked back.
It bugs me in the sense that it makes me engage in self-doubt. I was first exposed to feminism at University and then more meaningfully on a progressive board about a year ago where many really had studied and reflected on feminism. it wasn't a passing interest. I walked away from the board not being a feminist but having several positive examples of feminism and asking myself if I was being fair on this issue.
These kind of comments make me shake my head at my foolishness. Obviously this is what many feminists think and don't articulate out loud due to politcal optics. It's probably something usually said when people are out of earshot.
I am dumbfounded that feminists would talk of other women as "cunts", "sluts", and "harlots" but I'm glad I learned that was part of the movement.
It doesn't make me mad or pissed off - it makes me keenly aware of how vigilant I will have to be with my own children to ensure that my future daughters in particular have to have a good understanding of feminists.
Don't buy the sugar coated version.
http://workingmotherbacktalk.blogspot.com/
go here and check it out...
The daycare lobbyists are really bad at pushing us around, many of our people have met with them and done conferences and literally they are boo'd and given dirty looks. The only support they get is when woman walk by and whisper it.
I think it's unwise to draw conclusions from what few idiots do. I'm a pro-choice man who has supported many causes and organizations that are "feminist"; those vulgar epithets and the violence they imply don't reflect my views or feelings, or, frankly, those of anyone I know.
" All of the persons who made the comments were people who self-identify as progressive and feminist."
Actually, the vulgar comments you cite were made by anonymous posters on someone's blog. They didn't self-identify as anything.
"I'm not getting into the debate whether or not a man can be a feminist)."
Because there is no debate. The answer is yes.
" little less than half of the people who said the insulting things were men. The slight majority were men who self-identify as feminists and who are identified as feminists by female feminists that have shown them support. The women have been silent and/or supportive of the real over the top comments such as "slut" "whore" or "cunt" but have largely avoided saying those words themselves. While each of the women said disparaging thngs about women who disagree with them only one was coarse enough to use a word like "cunt""
Given that you didn't link to any of the comments in your main post on the subject, I'll have to take your word for it.
In any case, you've missed the point of my previous post, which was that if someone uses anti-feminist terminology, they aren't a feminist. Or at least they are not a very good one. Therefore, for you to use the comments of people on message boards as evidence of the secret black heart of every feminist ever is a deeply flawed exercise. (It's also sad that, for all the insight you claim to have gained about feminism, you still regard it as a "movement"; that is, a monolithic entity.)
But here's a thought for you. There's nothing more frustrating to a feminist than an anti-feminist woman. That the anger at seeing women support (in a feminist's opinion, and my own) views and policies that have traditionally been used to repress and demean women would manifest itself in invective that is itself demeaning towards women demonstrates the pervasiveness of the patriarchy and thus the enduring need for a political philosophy top counter its more noxious byproducts. In other words: feminsism. (of course, as I implied above, feminism is actually a range of philosophies...but you get the point, I hope.)
Bablican that's wonderful to know. Sincerely.
Littlefury you are actually incorrect those comments came from blogs and forums not all of the individuals are anonymous. I will not post a link to their words but I have kept all the links. If you comment and give me your email address I'll send you the links I won't post them here and attract traffic. I would not disclose your email address so your choice. Many of those people are known feminists btw.
And, little fury, I think men can be feminists but when I've said that some women have disagreed. I just don't want to focus on that.
You are also correct that while I recognize feminism is not a monolithic entity I didn't do a very good job of conveying that. There is one particular feminist that I believe has discussed this matter with sensitivity and not abused anyone with such horrible gender-specific terms.
I also don't believe that all feminists have a black heart.
And feminists do not have a right to be angered that other women have different voices and perspective. Women are half the population and there will be rich diversity in views. It's an act of abuse to assume that women have one mind, one view, one thought that we all share in common and anyone who steps out of line should be abused.
I want to encourage everyone to have a peek at Sara's link.
It's another example of the hatred.
I thought the social contract was "you act like a lady and I'll act like a gentleman".
I don't think it was men who tore up the social contract...
Are you referring to me specifically? I don't think I said anything disparaging to the people who referred to myself and other women as "cunts" "harlots" or "sluts'.
If you are asking me if I believe that would be an appropriate retort even if I did then I'd have to disagree.
But, please don't think I am complaining because despite my initial flinch I must say that I have felt very pleased to finally receive clarity about how pro-choice feminist men think about women who speak out and to have the opportunity to share their thoughts with people who were as naive as I was.
By gaining insight into how women, children, and families are seen it allows us to remain vigilant to protect ourselves and our families.
One quick point:
"You are also correct that while I recognize feminism is not a monolithic entity I didn't do a very good job of conveying that. There is one particular feminist that I believe has discussed this matter with sensitivity and not abused anyone with such horrible gender-specific terms."
You say you acknowledge feminism is not a monolith, and yet continue to try and portray such comments as "the voice of feminism". So either you're lying about the former or you're wrong about the latter. Which is it?
Little fury, I honestly feel very conflicted. I am struggling with how much of a voice these individuals represent. Is it 30% or 70%??? I am not sure. I do know that it's enough of a voice that it can't be ignored.
The reality is that a significant number of people that spoke up supporting funding that I read and saw DID make these kind of comments and many more stood silently in the same threads and never said anything. It was a significant number of the comments and a message that cannot and should not be ignored.
Infact, little fury -and I certainly could have missed comments out there in the vast blogosphere you are the ONLY person that I saw comment that words like harlot, cunt, whore, etc were unacceptable terms to use towards women. YOU WERE IT.One person. Rather sad.
Other people endorsed it through their silence or spoken word.
At the same time I won't ignore that some people who were supporters of status of women funding did keep their blogs absent of any of that kind of rhetoric and that didn't go unnoticed.
But, really, littlefury I was sincerely shocked that supposedly progressive feminist voices thought that it was acceptable to say "harlot" "slut" etc towards women. It makes me understand why feminist women feel so vulnerable about relying on men, so committed to women's shelters, and so emphatic that the patriarch is alive and well. If these are the men that they are surrounded by their world is a very sad one indeed.
"Little fury, I honestly feel very conflicted. I am struggling with how much of a voice these individuals represent. Is it 30% or 70%??? I am not sure. I do know that it's enough of a voice that it can't be ignored."
And why not? We're talking about individuals on the internet here.
"The reality is that a significant number of people that spoke up supporting funding that I read and saw DID make these kind of comments and many more stood silently in the same threads and never said anything. It was a significant number of the comments and a message that cannot and should not be ignored."
Again, why not? First, I have to say anyone who stands by idly while someone uses terms demeaning to women is no more a feminist than the person using said term, no matter what they call themselves. I mean, there's plenty of ammo for attacking REAL Women's actual positions without resorting to anti-feminist rhetoric (incidentally, I think you miss the point of some of the comments directed at RW). At the end of the day, we're still talking about a relative handful of people on an obscure corner of the internet ("the vast blogosphere" is a bit disingenous: no offence, but sites like yours and Canadain Cynic's are the Redwaters and Etobicoke's of the blogosphere).
Perhaps, LF, it's hard for me to gauge how much of a voice this is because I just don't know people who hold pro-feminist positions in real life in any meaningful number. I was quite startled to read some things written. I can't assess how much of a voice that it represents - I did feel it represented the majority of comments that I, personally, read and found it all very unsettling. I realize you disagree and you probably have a broader perspective as you are more familiar with the movement.
And,yes, you don't need to toss around words like "whores" "cunts" "harlots" "sluts" etc in order to be against REAL women. I, myself, would not support them because I don't feel that they have the normal measures of accountability that I am used to seeing. Where are their quarterly reports? Where is the list of the current Board of Directors? Where is some information about their membership numbers? I would just like to see that kind of detail as part of determining some sense of who they are speaking on behalf of and what they are doing. I also will never hold the same views on same sex marriage as they do and couldn't be a part of their messages on gay rights.
And, just to tell you, it wasn't just on canadian cynic's blog.
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